April 5, 2025
16. The Conservative Party Transformation in the 70s and 80s - with Dr Simon Griffiths
WEBVTT
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:02.600
Welcome to the modern British political history podcast.
00:00:02.609 --> 00:00:03.390
For this episode.
00:00:03.430 --> 00:00:04.389
I'm joined by Dr.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:08.710
Simon Griffiths, whose reader in politics at Goldsmiths University of London.
00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:10.359
Welcome to the podcast, Simon.
00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:11.060
Great to have you on.
00:00:11.619 --> 00:00:12.189
Nice to be here.
00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:12.910
Certainly.
00:00:13.249 --> 00:00:25.199
We've prepared some questions, which I'm looking forward to getting into before we get into those It'd be great just to get a little intro about your research interests and that can hopefully segue us nicely into into some questions
00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:30.039
I, um, I write about British politics.
00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:32.890
I'm interested in a few different aspects of that.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:40.009
I'm very interested in the kind of the history of ideas and how, um, ideas shape modern party politics.
00:00:40.170 --> 00:00:45.280
how the idea of conservatism, for example, finds its way into the modern conservative party.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:47.920
Uh, but I'm also interested in, public policy.
00:00:48.957 --> 00:01:13.781
the first question we prepared Simon was what was the makeup of the conservative party in the 70s and we broke that into a few elements Thinking a bit about who usually voted for the party Who its mps tended to be in parliament and then also what its policy platform tended to look like in the 70s So let's take that first one which is about who voted for the party What did that look like in the 70s
00:01:14.996 --> 00:01:32.871
there's a, there's a famous quote in, in British, um, politics, um, uh, from Peter Poulter from 1967, and he claimed that class was the basis of British party politics and all else is embellishment and detail, um, and really in that post war period that held true.
00:01:33.031 --> 00:01:35.971
It's much less true, um, today.
00:01:36.292 --> 00:01:43.802
Um, but overwhelmingly the, um, conservative party attracted the support of wealthier members of society.
00:01:43.992 --> 00:01:50.912
Um, increasingly it attracted the support of, um, uh, from the landed to the commercial.
00:01:51.296 --> 00:01:52.307
Um, interests.
00:01:52.686 --> 00:01:57.796
However, you know, this embellishment and detail is, is interesting, um, and, um, important.
00:01:58.057 --> 00:02:09.412
The Conservative Party has always been able to attract a, um, a significant number of working class, um, voters, who I think, um, are attracted perhaps by the...
00:02:09.551 --> 00:02:24.822
Um, patriotism by aspects of the social conservatism by, um, uh, believing the party represented a kind of stronger line on protection of, uh, of church and particularly, um, the church of, um, England.
00:02:25.282 --> 00:02:33.502
Uh, and also within that kind of embellishment and detail, the conservative party has until very recently been able to attract more women.
00:02:33.787 --> 00:02:35.967
uh, than men as voters.
00:02:36.227 --> 00:02:43.377
Um, so there's been a, at times, pretty significant gender gap, um, in, um, voting.
00:02:43.997 --> 00:03:00.046
Um, and there's lots of suggestions about why that is, and one of them, um, put forward in the literature on kind of post war, um, politics is, um, the Conservative Party's skepticism about rationing, for example, which, which carried on right until the, the 1950s.
00:03:00.342 --> 00:03:03.731
Um, labor, um, would have kept it going for longer.
00:03:03.731 --> 00:03:11.042
The conservatives argued against it and women, um, bore the brunt of dealing with the bureaucracy, uh, of that.
00:03:11.051 --> 00:03:20.062
They were in charge, um, overwhelmingly of the kind of running of the family, um, books, doing the shopping, um, and carrying out, um, all of that administration.
00:03:20.062 --> 00:03:23.401
So there is an argument that, you know, the, the.
00:03:23.641 --> 00:03:31.282
Um, conservative position on rationing, um, uh, attracted, uh, women voters, uh, more than, uh, men.
00:03:31.662 --> 00:03:34.292
Um, but there's lots of, lots of debates about this.
00:03:34.292 --> 00:03:47.812
And as society changed in the, in the post war period and more women entered, um, the paid workplace, um, those sort of relationships changed and, um, the relation of, of gender to party support began to change.
00:03:48.141 --> 00:03:49.241
Um, but...
00:03:49.701 --> 00:04:00.252
By and large, the Conservative Party, if you're taking a very broad brush, um, you know, was reflective of a particular position, class position, um, and would attract votes that way.
00:04:00.752 --> 00:04:33.901
and then what about its mps and in that maybe we could draw out Uh some Reflections on whether the MPs tended to reflect exactly that's or similar to that demographic that you've just talked about both on class, and then also I guess there's the demographic of gender as well you've talked about, or if there's to what extent is there a discrepancy between between who voted for it and actually the MPs in terms of what that what they tended to look like so be great to hear a bit about that.
00:04:34.012 --> 00:04:34.031
Um,
00:04:35.012 --> 00:04:37.351
Yeah, oh, before I even talk about the MPs, I'll talk about...
00:04:37.427 --> 00:04:48.497
Um, the kind of people who joined the, um, Conservative Party, um, which is, which is interesting and obviously that's a much smaller group than the number of people who, who voted for it.
00:04:48.747 --> 00:05:03.466
Uh, and obviously, uh, members of parliament are, are recruited from party, uh, members, but the Conservative Party had by far the strongest claim in the post war period to be a mass political party.
00:05:03.766 --> 00:05:06.497
Um, it had at one point almost 3 million members.
00:05:07.512 --> 00:05:12.612
Um, in the, in the UK labor peaked at something over a million members.
00:05:12.911 --> 00:05:16.771
Um, these are huge numbers by today's, um, standard.
00:05:17.081 --> 00:05:23.302
Um, but the conservative party was by far the, the largest political party in Britain, in the, in the post war.
00:05:24.547 --> 00:05:44.432
Now, many of those members wouldn't have seen themselves as strong conservatives, but they bought into the, um, the sort of conservative network, you know, through membership of a, um, political party, um, you, uh, Uh, welcome at the, um, conservative meeting houses.
00:05:44.461 --> 00:05:47.002
Um, there's subsidized drink.
00:05:47.041 --> 00:05:51.151
Um, there are, uh, these are kind of social organizations.
00:05:51.151 --> 00:05:58.512
And, you know, particularly if you are a small business owner, for example, you know, they are respectable places to go to meet fellow.
00:05:58.966 --> 00:06:01.747
Um, like minded, um, people and so on.
00:06:02.107 --> 00:06:11.656
So thinking about who votes conservative and then who becomes a conservative MP, you know, the, the network of the conservative associations, um, and conservative party membership.
00:06:11.966 --> 00:06:15.617
Um, is, is really, um, important, um, there.
00:06:16.507 --> 00:06:27.896
When it comes to who actually becomes, uh, an MP, that group is, is less representative of society, uh, as a, uh, whole.
00:06:28.166 --> 00:06:32.526
Um, so think about the Conservative MPs, uh, in the, in the post war, um, period.
00:06:32.526 --> 00:06:36.447
Well, they, your typical Conservative MP would almost certainly be male.
00:06:37.221 --> 00:06:49.541
Typical MP would almost certainly be, uh, male up until 1979 that only, uh, 19, uh, women, uh, MPs in the, uh, House of, um, Commons.
00:06:50.791 --> 00:06:53.632
Um, and this is where the Conservative Party would have been unrepresentative.
00:06:54.841 --> 00:07:07.562
Even of members, that conservative MP would almost certainly be wealthier, far wealthier, than your average member of society.
00:07:07.872 --> 00:07:10.502
There was a change in that period where the money would have...
00:07:10.927 --> 00:07:22.276
Um, being landed, aristocratic, slowly slipped away in the conservative party, um, to be replaced by, um, money gained from, from business.
00:07:22.637 --> 00:07:32.466
Um, the people who became conservative MPs were far, far, um, wealthier, um, than your average, um, voter.
00:07:32.826 --> 00:07:56.117
Um, and that's surprising because, you know, uh, right back in 1912, um, The, uh, pay for an MP, uh, was offered for the first time, so that could theoretically have broken the link between, um, um, money and membership of the House of, um, Commons, but that remained, remained strong.
00:07:56.726 --> 00:08:16.651
Um, and in the 1940s, 1948, um, David Maxwell Fife, um, who later became, um, Churchill's home secretary, um, Conservative MP, um, released a, a report, um, and that report changed the way in which the Conservative Party was funded in quite an interesting way.
00:08:17.002 --> 00:08:30.201
Um, but right up until the 1940s and 50s, um, conservative MPs were recruited from their local area and were wealthy and gave large amounts of money to the local conservative association.
00:08:30.791 --> 00:08:40.442
Um, and, uh, the, the, um, Maxwell Fife report broke that link between local conservative associations and, and funding.
00:08:40.711 --> 00:08:42.631
So, uh, the, the central.
00:08:43.067 --> 00:08:51.017
Um, conservative party, uh, after the 19 late 1940s, um, were in charge of spending on, uh, elections, uh, and so on.
00:08:51.567 --> 00:09:08.236
But that meant, you know, right up until the 1940s, 50s, there was this very strong link between, um, the local businessman, the local, um, squire, um, um, becoming a member of the house of commons and representing their, um, constituencies.
00:09:08.496 --> 00:09:10.106
So, um, conservative party.
00:09:10.767 --> 00:09:23.917
Uh, MPs were, were wealthier, um, tended to be from, um, local, um, elites, tended to be landed and then later on, um, to have money from, um, business.
00:09:24.256 --> 00:09:25.017
There were very few.
00:09:25.836 --> 00:09:27.596
working class, conserved MPs.
00:09:27.596 --> 00:09:44.447
There was a rise in the number of grammar school, um, MPs by the end of that, um, period, you know, people like Ted Heath, for example, people like Margaret Thatcher who hadn't come from, um, that, um, private or public school, um, background, but.
00:09:45.397 --> 00:10:04.067
They very much dominated that public private school background, dominated the conservative party and still does, um, um, note down here that the proportion of conservative MPs, um, uh, was it, uh, who were, um, educated at fee paying schools was around 73 percent in, in 19.
00:10:04.336 --> 00:10:06.746
79 when Margaret Thatcher was elected.
00:10:07.126 --> 00:10:19.626
So as a kind of proxy for, for, um, a wealthier background, um, you can see that Conservative MPs were drawn from, from far more, uh, wealthy backgrounds than, than many of their peers.
00:10:20.385 --> 00:10:28.825
And then Simon, what about the policy platform that the Conservative Party tended to be operating with in, in the 70s?
00:10:28.825 --> 00:10:42.485
And maybe touching a little bit on, uh, The history, I suppose, of what what what typically the policy platform tended to be and then going into a bit about the seventies in particular would be would be really helpful.
00:10:43.794 --> 00:10:50.115
Yeah Is the 70s is obviously a really interesting time in in British politics.
00:10:50.125 --> 00:11:23.274
So, you know to some degree it's a a period of of crisis and a period of crisis that we're still kind of seeing the results of I think, um, in a way, I mean, right up until, until the 1970s, um, the conservative party had dominated politics, um, but they had been elected from, from 1950 onwards, 1951 onwards, um, to, um, administer, uh, a, uh, a social and welfare settlement.
00:11:23.804 --> 00:11:27.524
That was put in place by Atlee's Labour government.
00:11:28.054 --> 00:11:40.144
Um, so after some initial scepticism from Churchill's, um, government, Um, to the introduction of, of beverage reforms of, uh, highly centralised.
00:11:40.470 --> 00:11:41.629
National Health Service.
00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:43.769
The Conservative Party accepted that.
00:11:44.330 --> 00:12:12.294
And again, it's, um, you know, it's David Maxwell Fife, um, Churchill's Home Secretary, um, who in his, his, um, Industrial Charter of, of 1947, um, um, Um, almost buys into this for the conservatives, conservative, except that these changes have been introduced after 1947 and by and large for the next generation are happy to, um, govern within that framework.
00:12:12.534 --> 00:12:18.164
There are arguments around the margins, uh, about exactly the extent of.
00:12:18.725 --> 00:12:20.384
nationalization in the economy.
00:12:20.705 --> 00:12:28.075
Um, but by and large during that period from, you know, 1945 up until the 1970s, about 20 percent of the British economy.
00:12:28.445 --> 00:12:36.554
was nationalized, all the public services, uh, public utilities rather were, um, nationalized, um, and the conservative accepted this.
00:12:36.575 --> 00:12:45.424
There were, there were minor disagreements about where the steel and haulage, for example, should be included in that, but these were disagreements, um, at the margins.
00:12:46.455 --> 00:12:49.345
Things began to change in the, in the early 1970s.
00:12:50.615 --> 00:13:10.164
Um, uh, and a sort of crisis, uh, emerged and the crisis, I guess, came to a head in, in the, the winter of 1978, 79, um, the so called winter of discontent, um, uh, and then that post war settlement really began to, to be, um, challenged.
00:13:10.575 --> 00:13:19.695
Um, so for example, the, the assumption that Keynesian economics, um, would ensure constant gradual economic growth.
00:13:20.149 --> 00:13:21.889
Came under pressure.
00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:34.289
Um, the, um, ability of, uh, the government of the day to work, um, productively with, with trade unions, um, began to, to crumble as, as inflation.
00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:42.539
The assumption that, uh, the economy would run at around about full employment, uh, began to, to collapse.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:59.639
So all of these things happened in the, in the 1970s, and it led to, uh, a new period, I guess, uh, a period when both the, the right, Um, on the left, we're beginning to offer kind of new radical solutions to the impasse.
00:13:59.850 --> 00:14:12.450
And on both sides, on the, on the, on the, on the left, so you think about people like Tony Benn within the, the Labour Party, and you, you think about the right, you think about, um, Thatcher and the people around her, Keith Joseph and so on.
00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:19.169
Um, we're interested, or certainly had a stake in, in, in saying, you know, this is not working anymore, we need radical.
00:14:21.110 --> 00:14:32.830
So there's a rewriting of the 1970s going on, um, at the moment where many people sort of point to the, the, the positive things about the, the, the decade.
00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:47.889
But on the right and the left, there were, um, clearly radical alternative solutions being offered, um, to, um, the role of trade unions, to, um, the assumption that Keynesian economics would work, um, to get inflation under control.
00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:48.820
Uh, and so on.
00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:52.820
And that's where you begin to get a very different type of politics coming in.
00:14:54.894 --> 00:15:03.804
And you talked about the acceptance that the Conservative Party, uh, had of Keynesian economics postwar consensus.
00:15:04.705 --> 00:15:06.644
To what extent was that acceptance?
00:15:07.570 --> 00:15:10.799
willing and to what extent was it under duress?
00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:35.934
I'm wondering, was it a case that there was almost a waiting for the opportunity, I suppose, of where What they, you know, the policy platform that ideally most, most of the conservatives would have liked to have pursued, they had that chance to do that because there was a crisis, as you've talked about in the 70s, or was that acceptance under the likes of Harold Macmillan?
00:15:36.174 --> 00:15:41.995
To what extent do you think that was really genuine and felt throughout the party?
00:15:43.210 --> 00:15:45.929
That's a really interesting, um, question.
00:15:46.529 --> 00:16:17.004
I do think that for that generation, maybe 30 years, uh, after the Second World War, um, the Conservative Party in its main accepted the changes that the Labour Party Had introduced, um, the, the mainstream of the party at that time saw themselves as a centrist, um, conservatism, I think as a kind of ideology could embrace that.
00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:28.784
Um, you know, so I could talk for a long time about, um, kind of one nation, um, conservatism, but it was one nation conservatism, uh, that dominated the conservative party after the.
00:16:29.065 --> 00:16:30.644
Um, second world war.
00:16:31.125 --> 00:16:38.414
Um, so one nation conservatism goes back to the days of, uh, Benjamin Disraeli in the, in the mid 19th century.
00:16:39.835 --> 00:16:46.144
And it, it was in the 19th century that the, the conservative party were.
00:16:47.884 --> 00:17:00.225
In some ways, the party of social reform, um, so you think about the big industrial reforms, um, and they were often pushed forward by supporters of Disraeli or by Tory politicians.
00:17:00.264 --> 00:17:12.095
Um, so, uh, the, you know, the Eros Memorial, for example, in, in the, in the middle of London, um, um, by Shaftesbury Avenue is, is officially called the, the Shaftesbury Memorial.
00:17:12.365 --> 00:17:14.674
And it was there, uh, to honor.
00:17:14.974 --> 00:17:35.625
The Earl of Shaftesbury in the 19th century, a conservative politician who had, um, pushed for, um, child labor reforms, 10 hour working days, um, greater safety in the mines, all sorts of other things that traditionally today we might see is on the left of, of politics.
00:17:36.134 --> 00:17:37.394
Um, so.
00:17:38.305 --> 00:17:47.125
This one nation strand, it became known as a one nation strand of conservatism, was really powerful in the, in the post war period.
00:17:47.144 --> 00:17:51.204
They're called one nation conservatives after, um, Disraeli's novel.
00:17:52.095 --> 00:17:56.424
Both a conservative politician and a, and a novelist, and he wrote a novel called Sybil.
00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:31.394
Or the two nations and the two nations were the rich and the poor, um, by implication the, the item has to be, we, we were all one nation, um, and that strand in the Conservative Party had been really, really strong and it was dominant right the way up until Margaret Thatcher's first, um, first cabinet, um, by which stage they were being dismissed as And, It was the wets, you know, this was a group who didn't have the, the, the backbone, um, needed to, to make the radical transformations Britain needed.
00:18:31.914 --> 00:18:37.525
But all the way through that post war period, that one nation group within the Conservative Party, um, was dominant.
00:18:37.535 --> 00:18:47.990
So they, I, I think they genuinely, um, supported, Many of the changes that have been, um, introduced by the Labour government, or at least they came to it to, to, uh, accept them.
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:57.059
Now, having said that, there was a group within the Conservative Party who were not happy, uh, with those, um, changes.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:09.055
And, you know, all political parties are, are broad churches and, um, there are crises in particular which, Um, force people to come up with solutions.
00:19:09.244 --> 00:19:13.325
And so when there's a crisis in the 1970s, okay, people are offering different solutions.
00:19:13.845 --> 00:19:27.305
But if you go back to 1958, for example, um, Enoch Powell resigns from Harold Macmillan's, um, government along with, um, Peter Thornacroft over a, uh, an, an economic issue.
00:19:27.845 --> 00:19:34.164
But in short, you know, the argument begins to open up that, um, the state is doing too much, the market isn't.
00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:49.289
Um, doing enough, um, so there were, um, significant players in the conservative party all the way through this, um, period who were skeptical, um, about the post war settlement, um, and wanted change.
00:19:49.750 --> 00:20:02.380
Now, by the 1970s, when the kind of the wheels begin to fall off, um, then people kind of revert back to their, um, kind of ideological position and, um, begin to look for, for radical alternatives and, and people who supported.
00:20:03.494 --> 00:20:16.315
Enoch Powell in the 50s and 60s, um, before Powell's racist rivers of blood speech, switched their support to people around Margaret Thatcher, um, by the, by the, um, 1970s.
00:20:16.785 --> 00:20:20.875
And she's elected in, in 1975 as, as the Conservative Party leader.
00:20:20.875 --> 00:20:23.174
And it's not immediately clear what she's going to do.
00:20:23.565 --> 00:20:33.660
Um, and then by the early 1980s, it becomes clear there is a something that we now know as, as Thatcherism, which is a radical challenge to the, post war consensus.
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:54.599
So that's a rather long answer to your, to your question, uh, but in short, I think, you know, a significant proportion of the Conservative Party, the majority, accepted the post war settlement, and that is absolutely, um, compatible with the Conservative ideology, uh, kind of centrist, one nation Conservative ideology.
00:20:54.869 --> 00:21:01.509
However, within the party, there were others who were more sceptical, and particularly once the crisis hit in the 70s.
00:21:01.825 --> 00:21:05.355
Who argued this was unsustainable and we need radical change.
00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:09.599
Um, which in itself is arguably not a very conservative position.
00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:11.420
Something we might talk about later.
00:21:13.634 --> 00:21:38.575
I find, I find all that really interesting, that kind of reforming tendency in the Conservative Party that is quite counterintuitive, probably for some people listening, um, uh, and, and yeah, might, might not be what, what you expect, but as you've talked about that, there does exist that, that, that element as well in the, in the history of the party.
00:21:38.575 --> 00:22:15.535
And then also what you're talking about with, you know, Powell is interesting as well because he's, Margaret Thatcher is often seen as or portrayed in the narrative as coming from nowhere and the ideas of Thatcherism and neoliberalism as seeing as being seen as starting with her, but then actually, like you've talked about, Enoch Powell was talking about these ideas before that, although, you know, uh, More, more to the, more to the margins or, or in, in a less, in, in a less kind of front and center way than, than Margaret Thatcher would come to be.
00:22:15.535 --> 00:22:16.855
So really interesting stuff.
00:22:16.855 --> 00:22:29.255
I, I wanted to, um, get into some of the, the meat of what we were gonna talk about, uh, which was about that sort of shift in the seventies and and eighties, um, which you've touched on already.
00:22:29.255 --> 00:22:33.694
And we had a few different, um, ways of understanding it that we, we.
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.539
Uh, wrote down as as, as questions, as points to think about.
00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:42.670
So I'll, I'll summarize them and then it'd be great to hear what you think about, uh, e each one.
00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:46.029
And the extent to which you think each are, are fair, uh, or true.
00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:46.509
Simon.
00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:51.569
So we talked about is, was it a move from one nation tourism to neoliberalism?
00:22:51.569 --> 00:22:57.660
We talked about was it the party's interest moving from what you might call the estate owner to the estate agent.
00:22:57.664 --> 00:23:01.470
So you could call that, I suppose, old money to to, to new money.
00:23:02.085 --> 00:23:23.575
Or the move away from Harold Macmillan's middle way acceptance of the post war social democracy, which I suppose is what we've just been talking about, um, of Attlee, um, and the, the, uh, coalition government of, of the war period back to something else, um, whether it's something more like Victorian liberalism, which Margaret Thatcher talked about.
00:23:23.684 --> 00:23:31.529
So there's, there's, there's a lot in that, but let's, let's try and take them Take them one by one and then maybe reflect on the whole the whole piece a little bit.
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:42.730
So that point around a move away from one nation tourism to Something like neoliberalism What what do you think about that as a as a thesis?
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:49.599
There's certainly something in that, and I think there's something in, you know, all of those views you've put forward.
00:23:49.990 --> 00:23:56.990
Um, I mean, neoliberalism is a tricky word to pin down.
00:23:57.029 --> 00:24:11.150
And, you know, one of the difficulties with it is, you know, well, While many people would have called themselves one nation conservatives or people call themselves socialists or people call themselves conservatives or liberals, very few people call themselves neoliberals.
00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:15.369
Um, and it's often criticized on those grounds.
00:24:15.369 --> 00:24:19.000
You know, it's, it's seen as a, uh, an expression of, um.
00:24:19.265 --> 00:24:23.375
Seen as a pejorative expression and tends to be used by by people on the left.
00:24:23.384 --> 00:24:24.434
It's not a kind of neutral.
00:24:24.575 --> 00:25:12.329
Um term However, there is some really interesting work that does show I mean you might not use the word neoliberal You might use a different term that does show These ideas, the ideas associated with neoliberalism, um, more competition, more use of markets, um, a limited area for, for politics, um, these ideas kind of finding their way slowly into, um, party politics in the, in the post war, um, period, there's, um, there's a good story about this actually with, um, um, uh, and it relates to, to Friedrich Hayek, the, the kind of, the great, the, Liberal, um, thinker, but you're certainly a kind of, um, a figure who influenced Margaret, um, Thatcher.
00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:19.049
Um, it probably wouldn't have called himself a liberal cause he had a sort of conservative, small C conservative bent to his thoughts.
00:25:20.484 --> 00:25:28.505
Um, as well, but he had published a very famous book in 1944 called The Road to Serfdom, and it had been a, an international bestseller.
00:25:28.515 --> 00:25:36.105
He'd been a, uh, an economist at the LSE before then, and he was known in, um, kind of economic, um, circles.
00:25:36.515 --> 00:25:40.545
Um, but this book came out and it was, it was, uh, you know, a bestseller.
00:25:40.545 --> 00:25:43.914
It was serialized, um, by the Reader's Digest, for example.
00:25:43.914 --> 00:25:52.914
And, um, a young, Recently, um, decommissioned pilot, um, it's just coming back from the, the second world war, came to see him.
00:25:52.914 --> 00:25:54.035
Someone called Anthony Fisher.
00:25:54.440 --> 00:26:02.059
Um, and Fisher had read, he'd either read the Road to Serfdom or he'd read the, the Reader's Digest abridgment of the, um, Road to Serfdom.
00:26:02.869 --> 00:26:09.630
And he, he went to see Hayek and, you know, these ideas were outside of the mainstream, um, at the time.
00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:16.970
These were ideas about, Um, the dangers of, of the growing state and the dangers of socialist planning and, and so on.
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:28.019
And so Fisher went to see Hayek at his offices in LSE and, and he said, you know, I read the book, this is what I, um, you know, this is the direction we should be moving.
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:28.950
What can I do?
00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:32.009
Um, uh, should I become an MP?
00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:33.769
Should I, um, become a campaigner?
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:35.599
You know, should I write?
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.619
Should I become an academic?
00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:45.220
And Hayek is, is meant to have said, what you should do is set up a think tank, um, or a policy research institute, um, and fund it.
00:26:45.674 --> 00:26:48.424
And Fisher became, um, an entrepreneur.
00:26:48.454 --> 00:27:05.795
He became, um, uh, the, well, the leading figures in a, uh, a company called Buxted Chickens, which imported, um, American farming techniques, um, around about battery chicken farming into the UK and Fisher became a very wealthy, uh, man as a result.
00:27:05.795 --> 00:27:09.684
And he used a significant chunk of that money to fund.
00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:18.380
think tanks or policy research institutes, um, that push forward this neoliberal for want of a better word, um, agenda.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:38.349
Um, so he used it to, um, put money into the Institute for Economic Affairs, the, the IEA, which is still growing strong, um, today, which attracted money from all sorts of other, um, organizations and businesses, um, as well, set up in the 1950s in 1955, but for 20 years, the IEA.
00:27:38.644 --> 00:27:44.144
was pushing out pamphlets, offering free market solutions to the problems, and not being listened to.
00:27:44.634 --> 00:27:54.075
Um, and then, all of a sudden, the 70s hit, the crisis hit, Thatcher becomes leader of the Conservative Party, and there's a, a market for their, uh, ideas.
00:27:55.204 --> 00:28:40.500
Via the, the, the think tanks, the IEA and later the Adam Smith Institute or the Center for Policy Studies and, and before that, organizations like the, the Mon Pelerin Society that Friedrich Hayek was very involved with, these ideas were, were out there, um, they were marginal, but they attracted interest, um, from people in the Conservative Party, from academics and, and those think tanks, the model, They were pushing for was, you know, these think tanks will be a conveyor belt between academia and politicians and by the 1970s lots of conservative politicians Particularly those around Margaret Thatcher people like Keith Joseph Jeffrey how Nigel Um, Lawson, uh, became increasingly interested in these ideas.
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:42.849
Keith Joseph in particular, a really important figure.
00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:52.140
Um, and, uh, they were providing Thatcher, uh, with solutions to the problems she was facing.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:01.670
So there's a fam there was a famous cartoon in, in Punch in 1975, when Margaret Thatcher's been elected leader of the Conservative Party, still four years before she was Prime Minister.
00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:04.789
Um, and it shows them all boarding a, a plane.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:06.029
It shows Thatcher and, and...
00:29:06.634 --> 00:29:15.075
People around her, like Willie Whitelaw, boarding a plane and the, the, the punchline is something like, you know, okay, you're on the plane, but where are the engines?
00:29:15.674 --> 00:29:22.174
And what it's saying is, you know, it's not totally clear what Thatcher is going to do, what's going to be the, the driving force, what are the policies?
00:29:22.934 --> 00:29:27.730
10 years later, you know, if you, if you ask people, you know, what Thatcher was for, it becomes very, very clear.
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:40.180
In 1975 when she was elected, it, it wasn't so, um, clear, but in terms of, you know, um, uh, you know, is this a move away from one nation conservatism towards neoliberalism?
00:29:40.539 --> 00:29:40.910
It is.
00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:44.059
You can see how these ideas have gone from, from the margins.
00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:54.799
You know, in, in 1960, someone reviewed Hayek's, you know, great tome, The Constitution of Liberty and argued it was like reading, uh, or seeing a magnificent dinosaur.
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.240
You know, this was a, a book from a different age.
00:29:57.250 --> 00:29:59.579
It looked like Victorian liberalism in an age of the...
00:29:59.815 --> 00:30:03.075
the welfare state by the 1970s and 80s.
00:30:03.305 --> 00:30:07.434
That book had, uh, was seen as influential on, on, on the Thatcher government.
00:30:07.734 --> 00:30:11.355
So these ideas percolated through to, to politicians in that period.
00:30:11.355 --> 00:30:27.484
And there was a move away from, from one nation conservatives who Thatcher was very dismissive of, you know, described them, as I said earlier, as a wets, you know, they didn't have the backbone to deal with the problems Britain was facing towards something much more radical, a kind of neoliberalism and those ideas become.
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:30.910
Much more powerful by the 1970s
00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:39.869
We've talked about this, the ideas element, uh, in, in, in that quite a bit.
00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:47.589
Um, the next thesis we've, we've put forward is, I think, a bit more about people and demographics, isn't it?
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.509
It's about how Britain was changing.
00:30:51.880 --> 00:31:10.849
Not at the level of high political ideas, but at the level of demographics, um, so this move from the estate owner to the estate agent, um, a kind of move away from a particular type of, uh, of landowning aristocracy in the UK.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:13.700
I wonder what you think about that argument.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:23.980
This one makes me think of a conversation I had with Al Wintourne who was talking about cultural, uh, representations of, of, of this, of this phenomenon.
00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:32.259
So you have, uh, for example, TV programs where, uh, that, that, that conflict is actually very, very important.
00:31:32.259 --> 00:31:39.880
It becomes the drama of, um, the feeling of, uh, of, uh, a new sort of money class moving in on, on the old money.
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:42.839
And, and there's, there's programs where, uh.
00:31:43.394 --> 00:31:45.664
It's often reflected even in marriages.
00:31:45.674 --> 00:31:55.595
So you have someone who is of kind of old money Meeting someone who's who's kind of up and coming But yeah, what do you make of that argument?
00:31:55.644 --> 00:31:58.144
That's more about more about demographics, I suppose
00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:01.450
I mean, there's certainly something going on.
00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:02.380
Britain was changing.
00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:06.319
I mean, countries always change and demographics, um, change.
00:32:06.589 --> 00:32:19.180
Um, but you know, that, that, those changes in the Conservative Party are, you know, as you've talked about in the past, um, clearly, um, going on at the time, you know, to the man of Bourne was, was the.
00:32:19.349 --> 00:32:30.170
Um, you know, this huge hit millions of 20 million people would, would watch, um, uh, uh, uh, essentially a kind of culture clash between, uh, old money and a new money.
00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.279
And in the end they, they marry.
00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:43.380
Um, uh, uh, and the conservative party did change, um, during that, um, period, you know, with, with Heath and Thatcher, they were, they were grammar school.
00:32:43.615 --> 00:32:55.545
Um, children, McMillan certainly wasn't, you know, old Etonian, um, I think, um, and the, the conservative party, um, did change, um, during that period.
00:32:55.565 --> 00:33:01.105
So they, they've got that, that going on, you know, the, the loss of control of the, the landed.
00:33:01.755 --> 00:33:13.134
Um, uh, aristocracy, and it was actually often that that landed up aristocracy who was most sympathetic to the one nation conservative arguments.
00:33:13.454 --> 00:33:21.414
Um, you know, there was certainly a kind of belief that, you know, for, um, to be born into, to be born into nobility, you also had.
00:33:21.884 --> 00:33:26.884
obligations to the people you, uh, who were part of your community.
00:33:27.065 --> 00:33:32.974
It wasn't an egalitarian argument in any way, but you were responsible for, for your people, your communities.
00:33:33.005 --> 00:33:37.724
It was, you know, this idea of noblesse oblige, the obligations of the, uh, wealthy.
00:33:38.115 --> 00:33:50.204
So, you know, the Macmillans and so on, who were part of the, the one nation conservative, um, group, certainly accepted that post war.
00:33:51.335 --> 00:33:56.424
Settlement, um, for Thatcher and the people around them.
00:33:56.424 --> 00:33:58.474
They were, they were, they were too soft.
00:33:58.535 --> 00:33:59.914
They might've, um.
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:02.600
00:00:02.609 --> 00:00:03.390
00:00:03.430 --> 00:00:04.389
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:08.710
00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:10.359
00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:11.060
00:00:11.619 --> 00:00:12.189
00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:12.910
00:00:13.249 --> 00:00:25.199
00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:30.039
00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:32.890
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:40.009
00:00:40.170 --> 00:00:45.280
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:47.920
00:00:48.957 --> 00:01:13.781
00:01:14.996 --> 00:01:32.871
00:01:33.031 --> 00:01:35.971
00:01:36.292 --> 00:01:43.802
00:01:43.992 --> 00:01:50.912
00:01:51.296 --> 00:01:52.307
00:01:52.686 --> 00:01:57.796
00:01:58.057 --> 00:02:09.412
00:02:09.551 --> 00:02:24.822
00:02:25.282 --> 00:02:33.502
00:02:33.787 --> 00:02:35.967
00:02:36.227 --> 00:02:43.377
00:02:43.997 --> 00:03:00.046
00:03:00.342 --> 00:03:03.731
00:03:03.731 --> 00:03:11.042
00:03:11.051 --> 00:03:20.062
00:03:20.062 --> 00:03:23.401
00:03:23.641 --> 00:03:31.282
00:03:31.662 --> 00:03:34.292
00:03:34.292 --> 00:03:47.812
00:03:48.141 --> 00:03:49.241
00:03:49.701 --> 00:04:00.252
00:04:00.752 --> 00:04:33.901
00:04:34.012 --> 00:04:34.031
00:04:35.012 --> 00:04:37.351
00:04:37.427 --> 00:04:48.497
00:04:48.747 --> 00:05:03.466
00:05:03.766 --> 00:05:06.497
00:05:07.512 --> 00:05:12.612
00:05:12.911 --> 00:05:16.771
00:05:17.081 --> 00:05:23.302
00:05:24.547 --> 00:05:44.432
00:05:44.461 --> 00:05:47.002
00:05:47.041 --> 00:05:51.151
00:05:51.151 --> 00:05:58.512
00:05:58.966 --> 00:06:01.747
00:06:02.107 --> 00:06:11.656
00:06:11.966 --> 00:06:15.617
00:06:16.507 --> 00:06:27.896
00:06:28.166 --> 00:06:32.526
00:06:32.526 --> 00:06:36.447
00:06:37.221 --> 00:06:49.541
00:06:50.791 --> 00:06:53.632
00:06:54.841 --> 00:07:07.562
00:07:07.872 --> 00:07:10.502
00:07:10.927 --> 00:07:22.276
00:07:22.637 --> 00:07:32.466
00:07:32.826 --> 00:07:56.117
00:07:56.726 --> 00:08:16.651
00:08:17.002 --> 00:08:30.201
00:08:30.791 --> 00:08:40.442
00:08:40.711 --> 00:08:42.631
00:08:43.067 --> 00:08:51.017
00:08:51.567 --> 00:09:08.236
00:09:08.496 --> 00:09:10.106
00:09:10.767 --> 00:09:23.917
00:09:24.256 --> 00:09:25.017
00:09:25.836 --> 00:09:27.596
00:09:27.596 --> 00:09:44.447
00:09:45.397 --> 00:10:04.067
00:10:04.336 --> 00:10:06.746
00:10:07.126 --> 00:10:19.626
00:10:20.385 --> 00:10:28.825
00:10:28.825 --> 00:10:42.485
00:10:43.794 --> 00:10:50.115
00:10:50.125 --> 00:11:23.274
00:11:23.804 --> 00:11:27.524
00:11:28.054 --> 00:11:40.144
00:11:40.470 --> 00:11:41.629
00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:43.769
00:11:44.330 --> 00:12:12.294
00:12:12.534 --> 00:12:18.164
00:12:18.725 --> 00:12:20.384
00:12:20.705 --> 00:12:28.075
00:12:28.445 --> 00:12:36.554
00:12:36.575 --> 00:12:45.424
00:12:46.455 --> 00:12:49.345
00:12:50.615 --> 00:13:10.164
00:13:10.575 --> 00:13:19.695
00:13:20.149 --> 00:13:21.889
00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:34.289
00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:42.539
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:59.639
00:13:59.850 --> 00:14:12.450
00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:19.169
00:14:21.110 --> 00:14:32.830
00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:47.889
00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:48.820
00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:52.820
00:14:54.894 --> 00:15:03.804
00:15:04.705 --> 00:15:06.644
00:15:07.570 --> 00:15:10.799
00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:35.934
00:15:36.174 --> 00:15:41.995
00:15:43.210 --> 00:15:45.929
00:15:46.529 --> 00:16:17.004
00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:28.784
00:16:29.065 --> 00:16:30.644
00:16:31.125 --> 00:16:38.414
00:16:39.835 --> 00:16:46.144
00:16:47.884 --> 00:17:00.225
00:17:00.264 --> 00:17:12.095
00:17:12.365 --> 00:17:14.674
00:17:14.974 --> 00:17:35.625
00:17:36.134 --> 00:17:37.394
00:17:38.305 --> 00:17:47.125
00:17:47.144 --> 00:17:51.204
00:17:52.095 --> 00:17:56.424
00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:31.394
00:18:31.914 --> 00:18:37.525
00:18:37.535 --> 00:18:47.990
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:57.059
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:09.055
00:19:09.244 --> 00:19:13.325
00:19:13.845 --> 00:19:27.305
00:19:27.845 --> 00:19:34.164
00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:49.289
00:19:49.750 --> 00:20:02.380
00:20:03.494 --> 00:20:16.315
00:20:16.785 --> 00:20:20.875
00:20:20.875 --> 00:20:23.174
00:20:23.565 --> 00:20:33.660
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:54.599
00:20:54.869 --> 00:21:01.509
00:21:01.825 --> 00:21:05.355
00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:09.599
00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:11.420
00:21:13.634 --> 00:21:38.575
00:21:38.575 --> 00:22:15.535
00:22:15.535 --> 00:22:16.855
00:22:16.855 --> 00:22:29.255
00:22:29.255 --> 00:22:33.694
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.539
00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:42.670
00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:46.029
00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:46.509
00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:51.569
00:22:51.569 --> 00:22:57.660
00:22:57.664 --> 00:23:01.470
00:23:02.085 --> 00:23:23.575
00:23:23.684 --> 00:23:31.529
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:42.730
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:49.599
00:23:49.990 --> 00:23:56.990
00:23:57.029 --> 00:24:11.150
00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:15.369
00:24:15.369 --> 00:24:19.000
00:24:19.265 --> 00:24:23.375
00:24:23.384 --> 00:24:24.434
00:24:24.575 --> 00:25:12.329
00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:19.049
00:25:20.484 --> 00:25:28.505
00:25:28.515 --> 00:25:36.105
00:25:36.515 --> 00:25:40.545
00:25:40.545 --> 00:25:43.914
00:25:43.914 --> 00:25:52.914
00:25:52.914 --> 00:25:54.035
00:25:54.440 --> 00:26:02.059
00:26:02.869 --> 00:26:09.630
00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:16.970
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:28.019
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:28.950
00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:32.009
00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:33.769
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:35.599
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.619
00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:45.220
00:26:45.674 --> 00:26:48.424
00:26:48.454 --> 00:27:05.795
00:27:05.795 --> 00:27:09.684
00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:18.380
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:38.349
00:27:38.644 --> 00:27:44.144
00:27:44.634 --> 00:27:54.075
00:27:55.204 --> 00:28:40.500
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:42.849
00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:52.140
00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:01.670
00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:04.789
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:06.029
00:29:06.634 --> 00:29:15.075
00:29:15.674 --> 00:29:22.174
00:29:22.934 --> 00:29:27.730
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:40.180
00:29:40.539 --> 00:29:40.910
00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:44.059
00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:54.799
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.240
00:29:57.250 --> 00:29:59.579
00:29:59.815 --> 00:30:03.075
00:30:03.305 --> 00:30:07.434
00:30:07.734 --> 00:30:11.355
00:30:11.355 --> 00:30:27.484
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:30.910
00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:39.869
00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:47.589
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.509
00:30:51.880 --> 00:31:10.849
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:13.700
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:23.980
00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:32.259
00:31:32.259 --> 00:31:39.880
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:42.839
00:31:43.394 --> 00:31:45.664
00:31:45.674 --> 00:31:55.595
00:31:55.644 --> 00:31:58.144
00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:01.450
00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:02.380
00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:06.319
00:32:06.589 --> 00:32:19.180
00:32:19.349 --> 00:32:30.170
00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.279
00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:43.380
00:32:43.615 --> 00:32:55.545
00:32:55.565 --> 00:33:01.105
00:33:01.755 --> 00:33:13.134
00:33:13.454 --> 00:33:21.414
00:33:21.884 --> 00:33:26.884
00:33:27.065 --> 00:33:32.974
00:33:33.005 --> 00:33:37.724
00:33:38.115 --> 00:33:50.204
00:33:51.335 --> 00:33:56.424
00:33:56.424 --> 00:33:58.474
00:33:58.535 --> 00:33:59.914